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Sorry - Muslim cartoon fiasco again!

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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 15:55 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Suzuki wrote:
That's not really the right attitude for having a debate about something.


Nope, it’s the attitude of someone who knows more on the subject. Laughing

Suzuki wrote:
If you're unwilling to discuss the extreem and unlikely topic of us having no oil from them, why bother discussing the extreem and unlikely topic of european genocide at the hands of some crazy arabs?


I would say loosing oil is far more realistic than them killing all of us in Europe don’t you think?
But they have killed too many already.
Muslims have made their mark in this country Suzuki, it’s stained the British isles for along time to come and it seems their reasons for doing so is religion.
Their protests of great anger towards the western world due to religion is something I loathe with a passion.
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daz|n00by
The Internet



Joined: 11 May 2004
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
killaPosted: 14:55 - 14 Feb 2006 Post subject:



Suzuki wrote:
That's not really the right attitude for having a debate about something.


Nope, it’s the attitude of someone who knows more on the subject.


Thats got to be the worst thing i have ever heard as a reason not to have a debate.
The idea of these type of debates is so other people can learn from others, but you are telling us now you know that much about the oil industry your not prepared to talk about it to anybody.

Quote:
They need us like water Jon, due to poor irrigation and a corrupt group ruling these peasants they die in the truck load taking some fossil fuel away from us doesn’t mean we are all up shi* creek.
If something as drastic as this happens we could make extreme measures to get by.


But that comment makes me think you dont know as much as you think.

And before you say it NO i dont claim to know it all either but i,m not narrow minded enough to belive i know more than others
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Suzuki
Roger



Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: 16:17 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
killa wrote:
Nope, it’s the attitude of someone who knows more on the subject. Laughing


You really don't give that impression. You simply come across as a small minded person who refuses to listen to somebody elses opinion, and when they start to show that there might be more to the situation than you first thought, you stick your fingers in your ears and start shouting "I know more than you, so I don't need to listen to your opinion".

I'm not expecting you to change your opinion, you're entitled to it, and in a debate such as this you're entitled to give it. However, to refuse to listen to my point of view because you believe that you either know more than me or know that I am wrong, just highlights your immaturity.
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numark1
Scared of girls



Joined: 10 May 2004
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PostPosted: 16:35 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Has trisha finished suzuki?? Laughing
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
daz|n00by wrote:
The idea of these type of debates is so other people can learn from others


Well I think he's learning something. Wink
That comment was made in response to him saying they supply us with so much oil, without it, we would be in big trouble.
I’m saying it isn’t quite like that according to what I have heard from my company, and as you know, every penny counts. This information comes from a reliable source as it is the industry, no harm in me saying so.

daz|n00by wrote:
But that comment makes me think you don’t know as much as you think.


Daz, I’m arguing with people saying to me “What would happen to us with no fossil fuels, we’d be fucked” of course we would, daft twats, but that’s not what I was talking about. Rolling Eyes

Suzuki wrote:
You really don't give that impression.


Likewise, Jon, you’d hate to be wrong to but we all gotta debate with someone.

Looking back through this thread at the way you got us into this debate, shows that you didn’t quite grasp the extremely stupid view of the entire western world created by these folk, they are chanting “Death” to all of us and they don’t want us involved with anything there. I was trying to get across that some of the population over there, really really need us to save lives.
Instead they burn embassy’s and throws rocks at each other.

Jon, Trisha's number - 0800 939 8933
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Suzuki
Roger



Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: 16:48 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
killa wrote:
they are chanting “Death” to all of us and they don’t want us involved with anything there. I was trying to get across that some of the population over there, really really need us to save lives.
Instead they burn embassy’s and throws rocks at each other.


You do understand that it isn't the people who need and (hopefully) receive our help that are doing the shouting though don't you?!

killa wrote:
Jon, Trisha's number - 0800 939 8933


Cool. Let me know when you're on so I can record it. Laughing
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killa This post is not being displayed because it has a low rating (Flame). Unhide this post / all posts.

Mrs Kickstart
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 19:15 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi,

I think it would be helpful to remember that
Not everyone in Iran and IRAQ are muslim.
Most of the violence is organised by a few claiming to be muslim. (but not), the Qur'an does not avocate this behavior, nor a lot else that is attributed to it.
The Qur'an allows for other religion ([109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion)

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice
[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust. (which is fair enough really)

Muslims have the right to be upset about desecration of sacred figures, most do not support violence to respond to it.
The political war about oil is not about religion.

Lets keep a little perspective here

Regards
C
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Last edited by Mrs Kickstart on 20:30 - 14 Feb 2006; edited 1 time in total
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zaknafien




Joined: 25 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mrs Kickstart wrote:
the Qur'an does not avocate this behavior, nor al lot else that is attributed to it.


Funny, I can find lot's of bit's in the Qur'an that advocate violence towards others.
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colin1
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Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think a bit of muslim outrage is understandable.

From their point of view, the contempt shown for them and their beliefs echos the perceived injustice of the west backing israel against the palestinians and invading muslim countries for oil.

In Iraq thousands have died and millions have died in both wars and as a result of the crippling sanctions imposed. Thats quite a bit more than a 9/11 type incident. With America now squaring up to Iran threatening to bomb its nuclear facilities, thats another few thousand on the cards. Yet its the Muslims who are the bad guys for crude suicide bomb attacks in futile attempts to hit back.
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Retro-Man
Traffic Copper



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 20:24 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Suzuki wrote:


My question is where you think the oil will come from if we completely cut our ties with the Middle East?



simple one that

take all our financially starving famers, stop paying them money for set a side and start producing Rape seed oil, which has been proven to be a more than viable alternative fuel oil source.

Then watch the middle east go fuck itself
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WR450_geezer
Nobody likes me



Joined: 09 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Send the IRA over. Should sort it out.

WR
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plugger147
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: 23:47 - 14 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
WR450_geezer wrote:
Send the IRA over. Should sort it out.

WR


Are you mad they'd teach them how to be better terrorists.

To be honest I think the legal protesters are putting us all to shame,they've been upset by something and got off their arse and done something about it.We all rant about how we get screwed over by the way this country works so either grab your placard and start marching or watch the government spunk millions on fucking i.d. cards. Shocked
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 09:48 - 15 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mrs Kickstart wrote:
I think it would be helpful to remember that
Not everyone in Iran and IRAQ are Muslim.

Most of the violence is organised by a few claiming to be Muslim. (but not), the Qur'an does not avocate this behaviour, nor a lot else that is attributed to it.


As much as I’d like to be agreeing with someone like you, everyone else probably would, I can’t.

I wish to know what sources you got your information from, your posting style is that of someone who knows a great deal about the majority of people in the country we’re talking about, whereas I think you’re posting like all the other members on her pussy footing around the blindingly obvious.
“Not everyone Iraq and Iran are Muslim”, well thanks, but seriously what is the relevance of that? Your not using the old ‘Only a minority’ chestnut are you?
And also I might add the topic is about students in Pakistan…..
What we are witnessing in one way or another is a ‘group’ of people (if they care about it or not doesn’t matter) destroying government property, maiming people (sometimes their own) and chanting death threats at a very large area of the world, over an argument about cartoons.

Mrs Kickstart wrote:
Muslims have the right to be upset about desecration of sacred figures, most do not support violence to respond to it.


Most?
Again, not enough, the Muslims or none Muslims causing this shit might care about the cause itself, they might not, either way they are spreading the ‘hate’ word and threatening innocent people.

Mrs Kickstart wrote:
The political war about oil is not about religion.


That’s very cute, but religion has and is very much to do with all of this, if the religious spaz they are throwing in the air causes enough agro between them and us, they can pull the plug anytime they want, as Suzuki said…..

Mrs Kickstart wrote:
Lets keep a little perspective here


What’s the view like sat on the fence?

COLINWALL wrote:
I think a bit of Muslim outrage is understandable.

In Iraq thousands have died and millions have died in both wars and as a result of the crippling sanctions imposed. Thats quite a bit more than a 9/11 type incident. With America now squaring up to Iran threatening to bomb its nuclear facilities, thats another few thousand on the cards. Yet its the Muslims who are the bad guys for crude suicide bomb attacks in futile attempts to hit back.


But on the other hand Colin you have to consider that you live in the western part of the world and you wouldn’t want it any other way Rolling Eyes. I never think killing loads of people is a good thing, but then I have no power, I have no control, all I can do is see for myself what is going on.
I don’t see your reasons for making us out like bad guys although maybe its because we’re all in a way wrapped up in cotton wool and we can say anything we like, we are as bad as each other. I watch the news and to be quite honest if I thought it was only the western people who were barbaric I’d consider being a Muslim.

Suzuki wrote:
My question is where you think the oil will come from if we completely cut our ties with the Middle East?


Retro-Man wrote:
Take all our financially starving famers, stop paying them money for set a side and start producing Rape seed oil, which has been proven to be a more than viable alternative fuel oil source.


You’re telling me that in 2006 in the western part of the world, we actually have a way to power what we need with an alternative fuel source??!! OMG!! Laughing
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Suzuki
Roger



Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: 12:48 - 15 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
killa wrote:
I have knob rot


Police Repost Police
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 12:52 - 15 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Again your lack of response is humours, you never put up any kind of debate.
You show lack of medical knowledge to Laughing
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 15 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
COLINWALL wrote:


In Iraq thousands have died and millions have died in both wars and as a result of the crippling sanctions imposed.



Which wars? We haven't killed millions, even if you believe the vastly inflated civilian casualty tallies punted about by politically motivated groups.

I believe the Iran/Iraq war killed about a million - and that was muslim vs. muslim.

Sanctions didn't kill millions, and shouldn't have killed any - there were provisions to allow Iraq to spend oil-revenue on essentials such as medical supplies. Saddam chose not to. Should we have invaded them earlier to force medicine on them?!
Much of the suffering and death that we've had paraded on our TV screens has been found to be exaggerated and inflated by Saddam for propaganda purposes - such as the alleged 250,000 dead babies that turned out to be a total fabrication after the 2nd gulf war, when people could actually talk to normal Iraqis without fear of retribution.

They were UN sanctions, a body that includes muslim countries and countries vehemently opposed to the US and UK.

Quote:
With America now squaring up to Iran threatening to bomb its nuclear facilities, thats another few thousand on the cards.


America is bending over backwards to give the 'EU 3' time to negotiate a settlement, they've said time and time again they have no immediate plans for military action and that they are seeking a diplomatic solution.

Ultimately any nation will use force to protect their interests once diplomatic avenues are exhausted.
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 15 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I wish I could word it as well as you James….he’s right, some of you talk poo.
I spend ages posting only to get spaz from certains members who can't say shi*....Rolling Eyes
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innominate
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 15 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Both sides of the arguments massage the figures. To say one is more the "truth" than the other is massivly naive.


Right wing pro-war groups (& governments involved) will under report the casualties. Or only have very specific conditions for a "Casualty".

Left wing anti-war groups will bump up and casualty figures by including everything remotly resembling a casualty. Nasty splinters etc.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 13:40 - 15 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
innominate wrote:
Both sides of the arguments massage the figures. To say one is more the "truth" than the other is massivly naive.


Statistically speaking, it's almost impossible for the two sides to be equally true - one must be more accurate than the other.

Quote:

Right wing pro-war groups (& governments involved) will under report the casualties. Or only have very specific conditions for a "Casualty". Left wing anti-war groups will bump up and casualty figures by including everything remotly resembling a casualty. Nasty splinters etc.


Talking about being naive - it's rather simplistic to assign pro-war groups the right wing, whilst the left is always anti-war. The political realities are slightly more complex.

US/UK forces haven't attempted to present figures, quite rightly saying that there is no real mechanism in place to measure them. That seems to me to be a little more scientific than basically inventing a figure that suits your political outlook.

I do agree with your overall point in general, just not the way it's been applied here.
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distortion
Nearly there...



Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 15 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
This whole thing is bloody stupid if you ask me. I just did a google search for 'jesus on cross cartoon' and found this

https://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/ang0164l.jpg

Now should we start riots everywhere ???

Im from a catholic background and my first name is John-Paul followed by another 2 catholic names then my last name.

Thing is i find this stuff funny.

Seems to me that the people that are protesting / rioting have no sense of humor in my opinion.

I mean if i was offended i'd be out shouting rasict remarks towards various groups of people
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Mrs Kickstart
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 15 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Binge,

To what purpose did you post a image you know some people find upsetting and related to a lot of trouble, it is already well publicised .
It does not serve to educate, to further a debate or provide any other useful purpose.

Quote:
Killa
but religion has and is very much to do with all of this, if the religious spaz they are throwing


Except I see it as few people hiding behind a religious front, not a representation of the religion or all its followers. In much the same way I do not think the UVF represented Christians although their slogan "for God and Ulster" may have led some to think they did.

The view from the fence is much better than on the ground with your nose pressed against it, It allows you to see more than one point of view and react with thought.

My comment "Not everyone Iraq and Iran are Muslim" is a reaction to the many threads, not this one in particular, in which people fail to allow a individuality ( ie not all all foreigners are Muslim immigrant scroungers)

Whilst the thread started about Pakistan it had got a little diverted to the middle east. However the same can be said of Pakistan (~75% Muslim of various branches)

My sources are my observations formed in part by the fact I work with Muslims who will discuss the subject and who I respect as people.

I feel a lot of riots are trouble are stirred up by the minority, in the same way a football riots and the anti-capitalist riots in London. They did not reflect the majority British opinion.

In poor areas, of inferior education, religion can, and is, used as manipulative tool.

In no way do I support the violence or the property damage, nor do the Muslims I know.

distortion, It is good your are not offended by cartoons of your religious figures, However not all Christians feel the same way.
It is not really relevant to how other people feel. To a Muslim making fun of their religious figures is wrong.

I don’t see the need for it, or the purpose it serves. The repeated publication of this particular image can only be a deliberate attempt to upset people. To an extent it is part of our increasingly secular culture to accept it is ok to mock religion.
It does not make it necessary or right.


Regards
Charlotte
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lilredmachine
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 10:36 - 16 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
It does not make it necessary or right.


Doesn't have to. You just missed the point of free speech. We can publish pretty much what we want to, the editor may be fired later (nice one Morgan) whether some people get pissed off or not, in the same way a Muslim paper can publish anti semitic cartoons. The distinction is that we don't care.

For someone who is sitting on the fence, your inability to aknowledge that both sides are as bad as each other signals to me that you have fallen off it.[/quote]
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