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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 21:00 - 02 Nov 2022 Post subject: Worrying (to me) veterinary prosecution |
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It's not actually a "new" thing, just something I only became aware of recently... This goes on a bit!
A vet was prosecuted and jailed as a co-conspirator in a puppy farming case. The puppy farmers were bringing him puppies to be vaccinated. He filled in a vaccination record card with the details (Name, address, chip details) they gave him. The owners details were not correct, the chip details were confirmed correct at the time by the vet. There is no argument about if that puppy was actually checked over and vaccinated, just the owners name and address was highly questionable in its accuracy. It is a fair assumption that he knew they were puppy farming.
He was found guilty of conspiracy fraud in a prosecution by the RSPCA because the jury found his vaccination cards gave the puppies a false impression of legitimately having been home bred. He was given a custodial sentence and 150 hours community service. He was also reprimanded by the Royal College and removed from the register for an additional month. He spent a total of 8 months in jail.
Now I fill in vaccination records all the time. Someone tells me their name and address, I examine the pup, scan their chip, vaccinate them then fill those details in on the record card. I have always thought of a vaccine record as just that, nothing more than a record of when the pup was vaccinated and with what vaccine. I have 15 minutes to do all of that in as well as discuss neutering, feeding, exercise, parasite control and training while maintaining a pleasant and engaged demeanour.
It appears I am now legally personally responsible for verifying that persons identity, address and the legitimacy of the origin of the dog when someone presents a pup to me for first vaccination.
I personally feel (as did the vet in question) that policing breeding regulations is not my job. My job is to ensure the welfare of the animal in front of me and in this case, ensuring it is fully vaccinated is a hell of a good start, ESPECIALLY if it's a dodgy breeder. I get dogs in all the time that have almost certainly been involved in illegal activity (hare coursing is one of the most common). I don't get all up on my high horse, I treat their injuries. If word got around someone went to the vets and was dobbed in to the police, the net result would be those people would not bring me the dog.
Same would have gone for a puppy farmer, I regularly get shitty people bringing me litters of shitty pups who are clearly just out to make a fast buck. I try to advise them on their care and think at least they are having the things vaccinated.
I was wondering how the public feel about this? Because the Jury in this case clearly didn't agree with this standpoint.
Would you take the name and address on a pups vaccination record card as proof of its origin?
How would you feel about being required to provide proof of your address before someone would vaccinate your new puppy?
How would you feel about suspected puppy farmers being refused vaccinations and reported to the police by vets? (With the net result that they would presumably stop taking them to the vets).
I'm rather hoping we can deal with this issue by printing a disclaimer on the record cards a bit like the DVLA do on V5s. Along the lines of "This document is proof of vaccination, not proof of ownership or origin. All owners details were provided by the person presenting the animal for vaccination.".
Hell, I've even issued vaccination record cards when giving whole litters their first vaccine with the owners name and address blank so the new owner can fill their own details in. I fill in the dogs details and chip number and which vaccine I gave. Now it turns out I could go to fucking jail as a co-conspirator if that person turns out to be a puppy farmer!
https://www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary-news/posts/uxbridge-based-vet-suspended-for-passing-off-puppy-farm-puppies-as-home-bred ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 22:06 - 02 Nov 2022 Post subject: |
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This worries me. By the metric of that case, I'm almost certainly a criminal conspiritor because I have knowingly vaccinated litters of pups where I'm certain the breeder has bred more than three litters a year and has no licence from the local council (which makes them a de-facto illegal puppy farmer).
I thought of another (to my mind) elegant solution which is to have new record cards printed which do not have a space for the owners name and address. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo World Chat Champion
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hellkat |
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tatters |
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tatters Exxon Valdez
Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 22:39 - 02 Nov 2022 Post subject: |
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With the possible repercussions being quite serious as with what happened to the other Vet in question. l would suggest getting legal advice from a Lawyer/Solicitor as to how you can protect yourself which would most likely be the disclaimer on the vaccination card you mentioned.
They should be able to draft the wording that you need to use. ____________________ Past:NRG50,AF1125(x2),NSR125RR,ZZR250,CX500,VFR400,KR1S,ZZR600(x2),CB400N,YZF1000(x2),KH125,Z200,FX400R,CBR954RR(x2)GPZ500S,GT550,VFR750F(x2),RD350N,XR650R,CBR600F,CB250,KDX250,YZF750R,CRM250,400EXC,KLR650,TTR600RE,DR350S,R100GSPD,RGV250,VMAX1200,DL650,KZ750 Present:G650XC,C12,CRF450X,1190ADV |
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Ribenapigeon |
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Ribenapigeon Super Spammer
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 01:36 - 03 Nov 2022 Post subject: |
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It was a clever scam in some ways. The puppy farmers were importing litters of puppies from Ireland then stashing them at an address and pretending that's where they'd been bred. They gave that address to the vet as their home address which is what appeared on the record card.
The court held he was complicit in the fraud because he used the supplied address on the record card in the knowledge it was dodgy.
But hell, I have some clients who come in who don't appear to be able to remember their own name. It sometimes takes them up to three attempts to remember which name and address they registered with. Most usually because they can't remember which one already has an unpaid bill.
The Royal College disciplinary committee are on their high-horse about it all and are saying he should have refused to issue the vaccine records and reported the people. They also seem to disagree with his standpoint that it's better overall for these pups to have been vaccinated. I think they're wrong. Even the judge in his summing up stated that the vets primary intention had been to protect animal welfare but it seems his hands were tied by the vagueries of jury trial. He wasn't even making a lot of money out of this.
I see it as similar to A&E treating a junkie for infected needle tracks or an OD. You don't report them to the police because you want them to come in for treatment.
The vet in question is also of the oppinion that the RSPCA have prosecuted a vendetta against him because he refused to release the patient records to them without the owners permission or a legal warrant (which is entirely in accordance with GDPR). I'm inclined to believe him.
It's a bit of a shake-up in the profession and there has been no clear guidance about exactly what we SHOULD do. Our indemnity insurers have been pretty vague with rough advice that we should establish a persons identity before issuing record cards.
It's not for me to decide overall. I have requested the management at work have a meeting to set out a clear policy/procedure for how these things are to be dealt with. In the interest of bringing solutions rather than just problems, the strategy of a disclaimer or simply ommitting owners details was my idea.
Ultimately, my understanding is that puppy farming is Trading Standards job to enforce. If someone comes in with a dodgy seeming pup, I recommend they contact trading standards who can act on complaints. I'm also happy to release records to them on receipt of a proper legal request.
The RSPCA needn't expect me to do them any favours.
Whay am I posting about this on a motorbike forum? Most of the people I know are involved in the profession in some way. Most of the people on here are not and there are a good few dog owners...
What also blows my mind was an 8 month custodial sentence. You could break into someones house, steal their car keys then lead the police on a 100 mile chase the wrong way up the M1 and not get 8 months. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Nobby the Bastard Harley Gaydar
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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virus |
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virus World Chat Champion
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Posted: 20:11 - 03 Nov 2022 Post subject: |
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I think giving a custodial to someone who was carrying out his duty to his oath and also respecting GDPR rules rather than the RSPCSAs bullying sets one hell of a bad precedent that would make may people in the industry raise the same questions you have currently.
I personally feel that the RSPCA have handled this entire situation very badly, effectively bullying someone on the same team until they got the result they wanted that may or may not have shut down that one particular puppy farm. Also bad call on the court for pandering to the 'rspca must be right' and not thinking about the bigger picture.
to answer your question though, personally I wouldn't give a flying fuck who presented the pup for vax and where they lived, Id have sussed them out by other means and would see the vax record card as just that, recorded proof of a welfare check carried out by a qualified professional.
Cheers
John ____________________ own: 81 xs1100g...
owned: 85 rat CG (sold), 91 GS500e (stolen), 84 gsx400f (scrapped), 81 z250 (siezed, siezed, scrapped), 83 cb250rs (sold), 84 gpz750r ratfighter (killed) 84gpz400 (sold), '80 cb650 ratfighter (wrote off) 95gsx6/12f ratfighter (killed) 91 xj900 (sold)
stinkwheel Well I just had my hands up a pigs fanny. Which makes your concerns pale into insignificance. |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 12:45 - 04 Nov 2022 Post subject: |
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He was actually doing the vaccines at a substantial discount, possibly even making a loss on them because he felt strongly that the best thing he could do for them was make sure they were covered.
I believe he was doing a 1st vaccine with flea and worm treatment for £16 per pup. You'd be looking at more in the ballpark of £50-60 for that in most places.
I genuinely believe if vets start dobbing them in, all it will achieve is that they just wont take them to a vet at all. Idiots will still pay thousands for them, unvaccinated from a car boot in a supermarket carpark, because a French bulldog is the must have social media accessory. I also get people in regularly who bought a pup from what was obviously a very dodgy source (for example from a basket of assorted puppies from an Irish sounding bloke wandering round at Appleby horse fair) because they felt sorry for it and wanted to rescue it. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Ste Not Work Safe
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 1 year, 218 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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