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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 17:51 - 25 Mar 2024 Post subject: Stator winding patterns? (includes smoke let out of wires) |
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Ok, full story. I've built a Belarussian Minsk 125. As standard they run off a 12v dynamo with an electromechanical regulator. They are famously rubbish so i didn't bother with it.
I wanted a powerdynamo from a German company called Vape but they stopped making them for this bike.
I found a Ukranian company (Vape UA) making kits for them ordered and fitted one.
The kit has a replacement rotor and stator with a little self-contained AC CDI ignition module and a single-phase star-configuration charging system. The ignition part of it works absolutely fine.
The top coil is the ignition one and it runs off a hall effect sensor, all good.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMUkQlqwT1zN3lnRvzgnQxr4BhLHRNror-btQDRVRA6aKSe1qZkR6rzp3G4jLGxxgZKXEpcypmxS0t49fOwsujDl6GIumWDPi0E1PWybuF5aGwtbMzAkU84YRAFrxmFAza_dBKIei-DXcC4AX21bTkF=w1547-h870-s-no
The charging part of it has been sketchy from day 1. Tried it with LEDs and they were super flickery, tried a variety of smoothing capacitors which were no help with this. Went back to incandescents but it was struggling with these too and cooked the electronic flasher relay and was popping bulbs on occasion.
Replaced the universal 4-wire Chinese reg/rec it came with with a FH020 mosfet. This seemed fine when tested. Lasted about 5 miles then popped a load of bulbs. Failed to high voltage.
Fitted another one with a big capacitor in paralell to the output. This also seemed to be working ok (not great but the lights worked) but the lighting died after about 10 miles. On returning home, I checked the stator, it was open circuit. Visual check confirmed distressing burning smell and lots of scorched plastic and wires.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczP4dUJNG5HMAoAFLThDr0a3eImvTuQL3iCH94ow96voATrBYX5zXDzmHFCFLr8Ce7SGc6y8oxJxvbjhE1wdM0wRtEW4soeUmz3BSShEiByHGKPiRkdmNek46UlRk3EwIML1NIpPiOrjNFrNdNB7Pgwb=w1547-h870-s-no
I set about dismantling it, to see how it was configured as much as anything. Two things I learned. 1) It's a standard "universal" Chinese stator bolted to a custom made backing plate. 2) The wires aren't copper, they are aluminium with a copper-ish coating!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczNjHccYsBj9XDaupmoXSCJaYHEsAn1x0atwQxm8Y2tsP6GvXtarrLFSARJ6sT1TcBarfae7QfrqOZ-They68kSwcHu8EYvMiz3O1GXiKvN-jg8zUgFOHnWt_NLVMsH2JrF1-xxOSQxk-hxiTUGIl2Xm=w1547-h870-s-no
I've ordered another one with unmelted bobbins, £20 on amazon. It's my intention to rewind it with proper enamelled copper wire.
Now the question. Do I wind it how it was or do I do something different? It doesn't seem quite correct to my amateur understanding of how these things work.
Here's what I have. The top coil at 12 o' clock is a very finely wound high-voltage coil to power the CDI. I'm leaving this as-is, seems to work fine. The remaining 7 coils each have 55 turns of 1.0mm wire. The winding direction is opposite for each adjacent coil as you work round the "star". The two outputs were fed into a standard 4-wire shunt-type reg/rec.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczPRNjl1iLIB_02Z_J4rdQOLlRQRTc3lvZr_G3l81N0o3DjM-lDnvaR7mtuuymmxivwNkYiwxLm4QyPVQiQ7kxQWN02rUgTnb6ZQIMFr_UdaIL7SGlc1DNnanhwkQVzLOfn5BYZAJQWL00SFmIw_GNog=w592-h870-s-no
Now, one thing I noticed is the opposite coils in this setup are wound in the same direction when viewed from the top of the coil. Is this right? I thought this would give you weird overlapping field effects and cancel out a lot of the voltage? I thought opposite coils were supposed to be wound in opposite directions?
I double checked with a compass and the rotor is absolutely vanilla. Eight equally spaced magnets alternating in pole orientation as you go round.
One thought was to miss out the 6 o' clock pole but carry on with the pattern so the opposite poles are wound in opposite directions.
Another thought was to re-configure it with two wires wound onto every other pole and miss one out so each wire has two opposite poles wound in opposite directions plus a third pole equally spaces between them. pair one side so I have three outputs to feed into my 5-wire reg/rec. As per the following diagram:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMYp0YyB0F3z5nhEJ9m3M1tO5ISjUWIV7kZhHCXHuJVOtou0eHiw3_1B-z5wM-MCwO10iN3KWcPl8Sd8k399beaUh9UIn7Y_mBK7Kdcs7bqXFbkhmcijOFxqrq7-kvqUQEVAr9gbRq0joJKazJugbDN=w581-h870-s-no
Another thought was to wind it as standard but with a take-off exactly halfway leaving me three outputs to feed into the five wire reg/rec (broadly as suggested by WD forte in my build thread). As below:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczM-tzgbCe9FNLvFJvhPIOVk0zSLaB21c_x7ocfghDJqGC3ZJaXrxV7XhP9T7tLe5i3NBjrfajF3kLvWIHdE46oMOn74PJaf1n4GwdqH7bV8ThdO83sk1dYCcTf_ilMlPB2o_ebycyiAzJA12MOndnt5=w610-h870-s-no
Thoughts/questions/ridicule? ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
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Posted: 22:30 - 25 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Copper coloured aluminium?! Clever chaps, those Chinese Except Aluminium has more resistivity than copper which makes you wonder if that led to the coils getting cooked. Probably means you can use less than the original 1mm diameter in copper - less resistivity and better at conducting away heat. Shame you have the ignition coil up there at 12 o'clock otherwise it'd be easy to wire up a typical three-phase generator
I'd say it's probably worth picturing it in terms of how you'd wire a DC electric motor with regards to coil wiring/arrangement. IIRC there were some bikes that the generator doubled as starter motor. Thing is "dc brushless motor" mostly throws up three-phase designs. I did turn up this:
https://i.stack.imgur.com/ip5PT.jpg
(source: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/365796/how-do-single-phase-bldc-motors-start-in-proper-direction)
And if I'm reading the diagram correctly one would wire it up clockwise, anti-clockwise, clockwise, anti-clockwise... with the bottom of the first coil coil connecting to the top of the next coil. ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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jeffyjeff World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 08:40 - 26 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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jeffyjeff wrote: | stinkwheel wrote: | ...Thoughts/questions/ridicule? |
Thanks for the mental challenge today.
Note: Edited several times over the night.
I have taken the liberty of modifying your drawing to include the flywheel magnetic properties as I understand it. Eight coils would require an even number of magnetic poles to keep current flowing across the series coils. North pole magnetic polarity bisecting a counter-clockwise wound coil induces voltage polarity in the same direction as a South pole bisecting a clockwise wound coil. Thus you achieve a series circuit with an AC output. (Frequency at a rate of engine RPM X number of pairs of magnetic poles). If indeed the windings alternate clockwise and counter-clockwise as indicated in your diagram labeled “Standard Single Phase Wiring, I cannot conceive that a magnetic pole pair with North and South 180 degrees apart would even work. (because you would have North and South poles bisecting counter-clockwise wound coils at the same instant in time.) Your diagram implies (to me) multiple magnetic poles in the flywheel.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53612037623_00f6d21132.jpg
I am by no means an electrical engineer, but as I see it, variation A will not work as shown because induced voltages will cancel each other; i.e. you have North poles on the flywheel bisecting both clockwise and counter-clockwise windings on the same circuit. I think it might work if the windings were wound so the current flow would be induced all in the same direction, but capacity would be lost because you are winding one less coil.
Variation B resembles a star wound three-phase winding, but the induced voltages between legs would not be equal and the legs are not 120 degrees apart. If you label the leads top-to-bottom on your hand drawn diagram A-B-C: Voltage induced A-B would be double the voltage induced in legs B-C and A-C.
Just my thoughts. I'm sure if I’ve postulated a glaring deficiency, someone on the forum will correct me. |
Your diagram seems accurate to what I found. If you place a compass next to the rotor and turn it, the needle changes direction eight times in a full rotation.
Coil 1 is a stand-alone ignition coil, it has it's own windings (many thousands of turns of hair-fine wire) and is tied to earth. So there are seven coils involved in the charging setup.
I found a couple of videos of people re-winding these exact stators, it seems they are very common on the various licenced honda clones on the Asian market and they do indeed wind them like the diagram. I may just go with this and see how it works, I suspect my one was duff from the get-go.
It's a very similar setup to a mid 90s' CG125, the stator body is almost or is totally identical with the ignition coil at position 1. They leave the coil at position 8 empty. The windings on those are totally different though. They have two sets of windings, one for AC lighting and one for a charging phase, both are tied to earth. I'm not sure of the pattern they use. Here's a picture of a CG125 one.
https://image.made-in-china.com/202f0j00YyWaLudKCEbs/Cg125-Motorcycle-Stator-Coil-Ignition-Coil.webp ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Posted: 11:59 - 26 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Any reason I can't fit a temporary fuse in one of the outputs for testing? For example, I don't know if my reg/rec is still good and they aren't simple to test except by plugging them in.
The enamelled copper wire is rated to 1.21A so if I fitted a 1A automotive fuse in one of the stator outputs, this should prevent it going full meltdown if there's a fault? ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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WD Forte World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Posted: 17:35 - 26 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Ok, here's what I came up with. Slightly numb routing to avoid crossing the high voltage ignition coil 1 at any point.
https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/windings.png
Now, polarity/directionality. If I pick a single point of rotation with this configuration, every clockwise winding has a South magnet passing over it and every anticlockwise rotation has a North magnet passing over it at the same time. This situation reverses every 45 degrees of rotation. So that's what I want? ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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jeffyjeff World Chat Champion
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Posted: 18:46 - 26 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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If indeed you intend to connect a regulator-rectifier at the locations of the black dots, you would obtain an unbalanced three-phase output, I believe, as shown in diagram A below.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53613197309_110703c6be.jpg
Here is an idea: Wire every fourth coil in opposite orientation to obtain a true three phase output (albeit the legs would not be 120 degrees apart due to the configuration of the windings).
Coil 2 CCW - Coil 5 CW Line 1
Coil 3 CW - Coil 6 CCW Line 2
Coil 4 CCW - Coil 7 CW Line 3
This would result in an output shown in diagram B.
But you could get a slightly more balanced output by wiring as follows to result in an ouput shown in diagram C.
Coil 2 CCW - Coil 5 CW Line 1
Coil 3 CW - Coil 6 CCW Line 2
Coil 5 CW - Coil 8 CCW Line 3
In the end, any three-phase configuration you wire will leave one coil unwound, reducing output of the stator. If the project were mine, I think I would wire the stator in series for a single phase output, and see if I could source a solid state single-phase regulator-rectifier somewhere. ____________________ History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men - BOC |
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jeffyjeff World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Posted: 00:12 - 27 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Well, I've gone for the kind of star-shaped 2-phase thing I pictured above. 40 windings per coil as suggested by WD Forte.
Took 3 1/2 hours from start to finish and used wire left over from the last alternator rewire I did. Even managed to rattle the bottom of the toolbox for some sleeving.
New stator £17 from Amazon. Don't worry about the hole orientation, I have one upside down. It turns out this one was wired differently again. It was odd and I'm not sure if or how it would work. Basically two phase tied to earth but one phase only had a single coil, coil 2, then into a common then another 6 coils in series then earth. Anyway, I just wanted it for the ignition coil and the backing assembly.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczPM1ohU7rfacUuwoYRBbsXMkW8wfqiTxrboV3jFdHv-hKAQ1FBqA2ZRRbRlYPFhgs8yt4y7KUKwo-TNiMD2ubNcDm3Yc9aJ_AQz8WSI0DGcc1IB-DL4zZgUy74RF7Pyq2lYZhU8loNZMtcislvB4EQV=w1547-h870-s-no
First set of 3 coils wound, commoned into the second and made a start on the second set of 3 coils.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczPYTDsSi9DNIom-a48OP8a8YatqwjzzEyV-gWSzUKB_fF51wzht__AHMRKNL6kuiZ2QL0c_y2YtD9hAxySPK5HnkeCn1MxTlPxygWSxSCncYGo1QKk560tl6Hd3FwZV4Fxn5lw8ODau0s7uwXgZmsUG=w1547-h870-s-no
Finished winding.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczP0ChOVRXeDFSSg3lPOSZSulunETN4gZVTtvSo6UD28ZU-D8hkj2OfE2_M3QFDOiyIYfaTVvUSbU3PvS04bRRcow0oQNHzlbhD8gJkksP11hOktqQYoR4DtOikYRQ_Cz8V7228dCImUSAvAEmNhiQGt=w1547-h870-s-no
External wiring attached, routed and sleeved. Resistance tests check out from the end of the wires so 490 ohm for the ignition coil to earth. Open circuit to earth between my two yellows and a very low resistance between the two yellows of about 0.3 ohms (at the limit of the accuracy of my meter) which is about right for roughly 15m of 1.0mm copper wire.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczPXIW7ax5fnOI2vAgmBX19FAKm7E7nHUvaYkOUC7eTTaKGnsuy46uqrUQPR_s0gb2lRXTbGKtKgycsZo6_w1ElX8CA9XoENjy0lr0nHqysASeKC7SSq06aDFwRV2jW8woqTMKi1bEs2qmuR8wsi5P99=w1547-h870-s-no
I'll attach it to the bike and do some tests tomorrow. Not a good time of day to be revving up a 2-stroke just now. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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jeffyjeff World Chat Champion
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rpsmith79 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 09:32 - 27 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Ah ha, a fellow DMCer is see Stinkwheel
Thought it looked familiar when scrolling through FB this morning ____________________ Current Bike: Honda CG125 ES4 // Honda CB600FS Hornet // Triumph Street Triple R |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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rpsmith79 World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Posted: 22:07 - 27 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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It works.
Fired right up and generates between 12and 30V AC.
With the zennor type reg/rec it lights 45W of incandescents and works the horn. That's the original Chinese reg/rec it came with and it's putting out 16v with or without a battery so that needs to go in the bin.
The mosfet reg/rec is not at all happy though. It sits at 15v at idle with either a battery or a capacitor connected but flickers and drops to 10v when you rev the engine.
I'm still not convinced this isn't ignition noise interfering with it. My digital mutimeter goes haywire when you rev the engine, even if it's not connected. I found instructions for a sparx reg/rec and they were very definate on the necessity of using a supressor cap.
I have epoxy on the coils curing just now but I'll try it again tomorrow with a resistor cap. It doesn't damage the wiring, it can cause the plug electrode to nibble away but that's not going to happen in a short run. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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jeffyjeff World Chat Champion
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Posted: 23:49 - 27 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Just to be visual, I think this graphic is an approximate illustration of the wave form you are sending to the Mosfet regulator. Not to scale, but illustrative of the way your windings are wound and connected. Might explain the erratic reaction of the Mosfet R/R.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53615544411_02cd4af3f8_m.jpg ____________________ History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men - BOC |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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jeffyjeff World Chat Champion
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Posted: 20:54 - 28 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Consider that maybe you just don't have enough wire turns to power your charging system. Grasping at straws here, perhaps, but look at a typical 3 phase stator; it has 18 coils arranged in three groups of six. I'll wager that each of those coils has more than 40 turns wound around it.
But for the sake of illustration, suppose that each coil has 40 turns, as does your stator. That would equal 6 X 40 = 240 turns, time 3 phases, comes to 720 turns of wire on the stator. Your stator, as wired, has 240 turns split between two phases.
I'm thinking that it is a possibility that your reg/rec is working fine, and that the stator output is just not enough to support the ignition system as you rev the engine up. Higher RPMs demand more ignition pulses per second. Maybe the voltage is dropping down to 10V because the reg/rec is maxing output to the battery, and that stator output is insufficient.
Don't know why the voltage would drop as low as 10V, however. Seems that the battery would pick up the slack before voltage dropped that low.
Did you count how many turns were wound around each coil when you took it apart? ____________________ History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men - BOC |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Posted: 21:27 - 28 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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The ignition and the charging system are totally seperate. All the bit I fiddled with does is run the lights.
I'm trying a different reg/rec. The mosfet obviously doesn't like it and the zennor one it came with is pinned to 16V, which may be a large part of why the stator failed. Also explains why it was exploding LEDs. I've ordered a podtronic one with an integral capacitor.
Brief testing with the overvoltage one shows at anything above low idle, it will run the lights and sound the horn both at once. That's good enough.
I put a supressor cap on to let me connect it through my digital ammeter so I can check what it's drawing (mainly to check there isn't a short somewhere). The supressor cap stopper the meter going haywire if it's anywhere within 2 feet of the bike when the engines running (even if not connected to anything) but I'll need to use one with a smaller resistor so i don't cook plugs. That's on order.
It draws 3.5A with the lights on, maximum of 6A with the lights on, brakes on and sounding the horn. That'll be lower if I can get it to light LEDs reliably. I'd really like to run an LED headlight, just for the better light, a 35/35W tungsten filament doesn't really cut it.
For reference, this dinky thing is the one on my enfield which will power all the lights and keep a 4Ah battery fully charged.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczPkRddp5FvvZQeamUbC5H8lhZA0YvotBSMyz00hffLb1cpAVD0BBkeXLGeMdjCGsL3P-Tr4jsfE2xWOWEMet5yEzDLi8IlpBMRG5ctaHyuww1FsGPmRmQfv73GAezsPYthGOwH3J7jqURMj-QU0L6of=w1160-h870-s-no ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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jeffyjeff World Chat Champion
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Posted: 22:21 - 28 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting this interesting project. If I am so fortunate as to ride either of my motorcycles long enough to require stator replacement, I am inspired to try rewinding it myself. I hope your repair works out for you in the long term. ____________________ History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men - BOC |
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blurredman |
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blurredman World Chat Champion
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Posted: 12:16 - 02 Apr 2024 Post subject: |
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And you thought you'd save hassle by not using the original ____________________ CBT: 12/06/10, Theory: 22/09/10, Module 1: 09/11/10, Module 2: 19/01/11
Past: 1991 Honda CG125BR-J, 1992 (1980) Honda XL125S, 1996 Kawasaki GPZ500S.
Current: 1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17k, 1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 9k, 1979 MZ TS150 - 9k, 1981 Honda CX500B - 91k, 1987 MZ ETZ250 (295cc) - 38k, 1989 MZ ETZ251 - 49k. |
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